Citrix Developer Solutions Podcast

S1E17 - Open Discussion 2: "Podio-based Product Marketing & Support"

May 20, 2019 Brick Bridge Consulting Season 1 Episode 17
Citrix Developer Solutions Podcast
S1E17 - Open Discussion 2: "Podio-based Product Marketing & Support"
Show Notes Transcript

1. The marketing for software is more important than anything else because a consumer needs to know what they are buying and what the functions are within it. 
2. How are you going to sell your product? 
3. Establishing strong credibility over the internet is difficult because in some cases you will never see your client.
4. Supporting your client pre and post purchase
5. Website tips and tricks 
6. Take an extra step to establish yourself and your company in a community
7. Having a demo video will help promote your product more. 

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Gil Roberts:

Welcome to the Podio Solutions Podcast, season one episode 17 I'm Gil Roberts with me. Today is our principal consultant here at Brick Bridge Consulting , Jarett Duker. This podcast is about the design and development on the Citrix podio platform. You find that in Podio, podio.com. We use this podcast to discuss their own experiences with podio from as well as other interesting topics from them . Oh, your developer community, your podio designer and developer working at an agency, small business or enterprise, you should immediately hit that subscribe button if you have already. Thank you so much for your support. Lastly, before we dive into today's topic, if you have a topic, issues, solution, problem, or anything else you'd like us to discuss and we want to know about it, please hit us up on our Facebook, linkedin, Twitter, or send us an email or podio message at podcast@brickbridgeconsulting.com today's topic, we're gonna be talking about the support of podio products and also the marketing and packaging and podio based products , uh , for those that are using podio to build products on the platform. So a and a interesting topic that we've kicked around quite a few times , uh, and and kind of allude to and a lot of our podcasts

Jarett Duker:

cause you can have a great build. Um, it does what you want it to do. You've had people come and tell you how great it is your like initial customers but how you get it into a mass market mentality. And the , the answer to that is the box that goes around it. Uh , marketing wizards have known this for a very long time. There's entire people who specialize in building product packages for the things that you see on store shelves and softwares really no different. If anything, the box around the software is even more important than maybe it would be for another, another type of product. For example, if you go into a hardware store and you want to buy a shovel, you pick the thing up, you get feel its weight, it feel it, you feel sturdy. Like yes, this is going to dig holes for me. Software, you're usually buying pretty much completely site on scene. You're completely relying on whatever is on the website frequently. Gonna talk about that in a second . Websites have one , um, to know what it is going to do and , and very frequently you're going off of bullet points that can be misleading or you can misread them. You can get a little bit into wish fulfillment and think that it does something or you hope that it does something. So this packaging around software products is incredibly important and it's absolutely no different for podio products. If anything, it's even more important because you've got one other problem, which is your name is nowhere on the podio website. We come across this a lot of times. Basic confusion about , uh, you know, I go to polio.com how come it doesn't say , uh, Rei express.com or or whatever it happens. Right? And, and I'm going to just go ahead and say this, since this is a developer's podcast, consumers are kind of stupid. It's been known for a long time. Individuals are smart, but consumers in general, you really can't give them the benefit of the doubt.

Gil Roberts:

They don't have the complete picture, right? There's , there's a good hard and fast rule out there is they know about somewhere between seven to 10% of your knowledge like , and this is your purchaser who's got the money that's making the purchase decision and you're trying to convince that your product is the best product. But they , they, they're operating in uncertainty and incomplete information

Jarett Duker:

and they also have no vested interest in your product. You're trying to give that to them. So their goal is to spend as little time as possible evaluating your product to see if it's something they want to invest more time into. There's a lot of software systems out there, there's a lot of websites to read through. You can never read all of it. They're trying to read as fast as possible to see if this is something that they should investigate further. So you've got to bring them along a step at a time.

Gil Roberts:

And you have to set that relationship with them up front ? Right. And that when we talk about packaging, that's what we're talking about. First impression, how they can interact without actually purchasing. And those types of elements that add the tangible to the intangible product you're selling.

Jarett Duker:

As well as critically we cannot overstate credibility. Uh , the Internet is the wild west. Go read a couple of youtube comments and you'll, you'll know the general state of the people that you may be interacting with. And so present presenting have a strong front of both fiscal responsibility support and that you stand behind your product is absolutely essential because you're dealing with people who will never meet you. You'll probably never speak to them and you're asking them to give you a credit card number. So you have to establish strong credibility.

Gil Roberts:

Now you have , you have to get, you have to persuade them and get them into the purchase, right? Unlike the shovel. They can't walk into a store and pick up and touch software solutions. Not Anymore. Maybe back in the 90s.

Jarett Duker:

Even if you were to give them some sort of demo version of the software. It's unlikely that they're going to have the knowledge of it to really make that demo useful unless they've got a strong vested interest already. Software is complicated. They don't have the time to learn. And see how cool it is unless it is really spelled out for them, which is why the video is usually more effective than a demo. But let's, let's break these three things down that we just talked about real fast, which is how are you going to sell your product? How are you going establish credibility with your clients and how are you going to support that client

Gil Roberts:

post purchase

Jarett Duker:

even pre-purchased very, very free... Well I'm not , I'm actually thinking a bit more of the little help boxes that pop up on selling websites nowadays. Where would you like to chat with someone? They're annoying, but they're also a strong sales tool.

Gil Roberts:

I used them, I hate having to click them off, but I literally just went use one today we are looking into a piece of software to see if getting integrate with one of our rei customers and they didn't have anything on that website if there was API access to their product or not. So I had to hit the chat box that's like, hey, this is a pre , they add a little menu that said pre sale question. This is a resale question. Right, so

Jarett Duker:

I want to circle back around to that one because it is such an effective tool for you, a much, much better than having a phone call. But let's talk about monetization at first. And the problem is is that as a podio product, as a support item for Podio, there's really no way to sell your product right now. And this is one of the things that got us involved with Podio is is this particular gap and that's why Sassafras exists and why you've been working so hard on it. But the app store, it's a great way to publish your creation, but there's really no way to monetize it like sell your creation. But that's not to say that you can't do a one off sale then this is a little bit more business model than packaging, but it is possible that you can have someone come to your website. Again though you're relying on an external website, have them put in their credit card number and then give them an app pack data file that they could install it . A podio , although that again requires a fair bit of expertise. A Sassafras does that now we can install it for them, but it's still, it's still a manual process. One of our people has to install it into their environment, but it's still an effective solution because it's not that many man hours and it's as a one off purchase. We're not going to support it. We're not going to , well, I'm just going to say that we're not going to do updates, types of support, not further development. One off purchase, sell it, they installed , we install it for them, they move on. And this can be relatively effective, but you're still really gonna have to build all the other things we're talking about in terms of packaging, but it's a way that you can sell. And then we have pass through billing. And you're familiar with this when Gil, you want to talk about.

Gil Roberts:

yeah, pass through billing is basically a set up to where you may charge seed price or configuration fee, a combination. T hey a re out of a yearly fee. You have some kind of fee arrangement, u h, with the product, u h, with that, u m, you can charge, I'll just use the monthly c price cause that's pretty, pretty s traightforward with that you charge a price to the c ustomers m onthly, I w ould say $50 a seat and then you then c ontract back with Citrix, u h, either for a retail rate or some kind of discount based on volume of users t hat your solution o r and or product is bringing to a Citrix. Obviously they, they want to see seats being sold and then you get to make the spread, right? You got what you're charging a c ustomers, what Citrix is charging you. That difference w e should be positive, s hould be a positive difference. U m, that that is your revenue model right there. Now a lot of times that's going to be smaller dollars. So we do see like a , a setup fee, u h, with some of our clients. T hey're making products and then usually a yearly fee and that the yearly fee tends to contain things like software updates and stuff like that. So,

Jarett Duker:

But you still have a problem getting paid. And there's two ways that we've seen is our monthly slash annual invoices in big business to business sales. Um , where it , okay, it's just going to be 25,000 a year for your organization. You get paid once a year. This is nice because what you don't want to do is get bogged down and transaction costs, but the reality of the world is you're probably going to be billing monthly and therefore you need a system that can auto bill credit cards monthly or send out monthly invoices if it's a large enough number. So you have to have a square or a stripe or some other POC software associated with your product. Both of those can do it, but you need to be cognizant of it from the beginning. Otherwise you're going to spend a lot of time doing personal accounting to make sure that you're actually collecting all the see prices and you're responsible for controlling those seats and knowing when they're going to go up and when they're going to go down. And this can take a lot of time. So it's a good model, but be aware of the , the investment in managing the financials of the product that you're going to have to do.

Gil Roberts:

Yeah, there's definitely some administrative overhead when it comes to, I think about this if you had like you know , a hundred companies would have 10 cc , so it's like a thousand seats that you've got to manage. People quit, employees quit, people go, oh well I didn't need that seat he quit last month. Why are you charging? You know, you've got all that stuff that comes along with those types of monetization scheme .

Jarett Duker:

Absolutely. As well as if organizations want to move off your product, you're still paying for those seats. You've got to , you've got to be very flexible in scaling your solution up and down. And then the third monetization strategy is just the podio extension and this is what we've seen be very successful to date because it really doesn't interact with Citrix systems whatsoever. It's an independent website selling its own private extension that they're going to purchase and all the transactions are gonna go through your private website and a , I'm going to call out smart phone on this one because I think they're doing a particularly good job. We've talked to Jordan Fleming a couple times already and you install the extension, you install the browser extension, you do the interaction with Podio, but you're really not touching the podio platform much at all. And all of the billing goes through the third party website for the product . Um, this is what most people think about when they say, you know, selling a podio product. But it's also very limiting because you're not really selling full solutions. You're selling extensions, which is good, but it's not what we are trying to achieve here at brick bridge with fully integrated enterprise level solutions built on the podio platform.

Gil Roberts:

What do you want to feel like it's coming off the shelf for the customer? Oh Hey, we already got this addressed . We were at this address. You're just buying the package. And a lot of, especially B2B sales and a lot of the CIOs or directors of it or people that are, that are doing this purchase, you know, they have money, right? They have a budget, as long as the financials work out, they're just looking to go, if I write this check, this problem that I've been charged with assault is solved. And you've thought about all the little things that I haven't thought about. Right? And that's that off the shelf field.

Jarett Duker:

Yeah. Which is wonderful, but it rarely works out that way. So you got the secondary consideration of controlling expectations.

Gil Roberts:

I'm going to add one more monetization path that that isn't necessarily an a or a , it's more like an, which is customizations. I once they buy yourself or however that may be or , or pull in your extension, you have the option to also charge almost on a project. I would , we do this on project basis with our clients and their end users. I'm just, Hey, I want this little thing to do something different. Now. Sassafras, we have the core software running. We use typically use globiflow, uh , to ride those customizations from podio perspective right on top so that they work in harmony. So, you know, keep that in mind and your monetization schemes, that kind of configuration and customization post-sale is a wonderful way.

Jarett Duker:

All right , so there's a lot of different ways to do this and we're not really talking today about like , uh , custom builds for people. We're trying to create off the shelf products with podio. Um , why is someone going to buy your product? And this is one of those questions that goes back to like marketing one oh one in Undergrad, but it still is true as it ever was, especially for software and for software. You have got to begin building credibility because you are dealing with a customer that you've never met before. You probably never will meet you, very likely, never speak to. So your storefront, your website , uh , the documentation on your website has to do all of your speaking for you. And your name's not on podio. So why should they trust you? And the first thing is if you're going to be selling a podio product, have a website for it. I know that it sounds like that would go without saying, but there isn't app marketplace built into podio and so it, it sort of leads people in the wrong direction to think that , oh, I can, I can utilize the on platform tools to promote my own product and it's a false assumptions

Gil Roberts:

Well , we've only found a bill on give a shout out to bill a digiflow. He gives away pieces of software and then gets his clients through that. So it's kind of a freemium model where he's like, okay, you go to the app store, here's my app pack. Frequently it needs additional customization and configuration and that's where he, that's where he hits his... I mean he has a business website. Yes. Okay. So here's probably , he lists his products in that marketplace, but it gives them away for free. So that that's the, that's the, the key differentiator there is that it's real ,

Jarett Duker:

a really good way of using the , the app pack marketplace because, but it's still trying to bring people to his website and engage with that inside his own universe.

Gil Roberts:

Well, even as listings, our costs are fewer just over time. Bills put a lot out there too . Most people have a , he's got his web address in there. It's got information about digiflow. You know, he's , he's maximizing the space that's given an..

Jarett Duker:

and there's a, another good example that is, have a name for your product and the name for your products. Uh, I'm gonna call it the ecosystem in which your product lives because it's rare that they're individual. And that's where I credibility starts coming from is people seeing the same name over and over again as a product. So websites have one just good . Start that as soon as you can.

Gil Roberts:

I'm gonna throw a couple of pointers here on websites, because website's been around since 1992 so I'm not going to add too much to this topic, but just as a quick shortcut, for those podio developers that are looking at websites or are , it may not be the html developers that's correct or may not even want to mess with it. Let's be honest, there's so much to offer to make websites anymore. You don't really have to mess with it. I'm gonna Point you in two directions. If you're new, start up . Insta page is a little expensive, but it's a great way to put a product page out quickly. Zero Code so you don't have to mess with all that. And even if you know how you just, you can just make the thing and you can do like ab testing so you can, it'll make copies of the same one. You can force a bunch of traffic on air and get some information about customer discovery and what people are looking for and where they click on where this feature set or where they add email address in this feature sets, instapage. If you're brand new, even in products and I offer great way for you to get some traffic in single page kind of websites. If you're looking for an actual corporate site. We use webflow here, which is a wonderful kind of mixed code, mixed drag drop tool that allows for a lot of possibility if you need something a little webflow does require some maintenance and some work I have to invest into that produces wonderful websites. There's always the good old wordpress that's available in the background. We like wordpress when we're looking at tablets . To be honest, if you want to build a custom website, web flow does a better job. If you're looking for a template website that you just want to get any quickly author work rest as your as your next one, you can almost put them in order, insta page to wordpress to up till webflow and it's kind of the way we went.

Jarett Duker:

And that's an interesting important side note as most of the time when you're going through this process of building your product package, you usually don't have a lot of sales, so you're paying for all of this out of either investment income, investment dollars or just your own pocket. So it's really important to do this inexpensively and all of this, all of the ideas that we have here are free or next to free. They just require some work and if you want to go that next step, either find or become a graphic designer to do a little bit of that extra work. But if you've ever been on upwork or a , I forget what , I forget what they call it now, you can find graphic designers willing to do great work for very little money as long as you can express your needs clearly to them. And a lot of that comes down to communication.

Gil Roberts:

And don't be afraid to like with your first iteration in your website, don't overdo it, right? Like you're going to change this so many times. And that's why we like Insta page is that first start one cause it's really easy to change stuff. You can ab test and let customers change your website to what they want. Once you get that data, if you need more time or you don't have a lot of cash, you can move over to a wordpress. If you feel like you've got your in stride, he got some cash coming in, you can move over into a webflow . That's where we got to say... There's plenty of other information you can find about them .

Jarett Duker:

And one thing on the website that a lot of people are seeing nowadays but maybe haven't really thought that much about is building and establishing or sorry , partnerships on the website itself. I mean go to Any product website, scroll the bottom and you're going to see either endorsements or direct product , uh, partnerships or very frequently supported by if it's a new product. Um, this is the equivalent of name dropping at a networking event is right , but it is essential because it places you inside of a community where you're alone. Until you can start saying, I know these people,

Gil Roberts:

it's like, well done, name dropping. Yeah. Now cause it's a good one name dropping uses and great , but this is a tasteful well done way of doing it. And again, it goes back to that idea of credibility. Hey, I mean you go to podio is website and it's got Sony on there. It's got the NFL, it shows their user base and their partnerships and those partnerships are not just, you know, just fancy names on your website that you had a few phone calls with. Maybe set something up . But these are, these are things that maybe this is the way that people are coming to your product , right through one of your partners through one of your clients. So having their name and their information there is really, really..

Jarett Duker:

And it , it has some , uh , additional benefits , uh , the podio developer community. Hopefully you're already a part of it, but it's a very open and welcoming community. Uh , very supportive of all the various products inside of the ecosystem. And not only will you find a lot of , uh , uh, cooperation between products, you'll find that people are willing to promote yours as long as you know you're not in direct competition with one another, people are looking to put your name on a website, even if it's a name that no one has ever heard of before, it's better to have a name to say, Hey, I'm a part of this crowd. Even if people don't know what that name is, it still builds credibility... Yes, absolutely.

Gil Roberts:

These people like this guy or Gal and I,

Jarett Duker:

they gotta be doing something right. They're not just the guy, you know , the guy who wandered in on the midnight express hangs around and looking creepy for a few days and then disappears again.

Gil Roberts:

Right. And trying to pick up money off of people.

Jarett Duker:

the drifter mentality, that's what you don't want to be.

Gil Roberts:

And it's the internet as you refer to as wild west, has that on there, right? It's really hard to get away with that in person these days in 2019 but the Internet that

Jarett Duker:

you're behind a wall of anonymity and you can change your identity anytime you want to. So you've got to take that extra step to establish yourself as being a part of a community.

Gil Roberts:

Make sure your websites are SSL so that they secure show security, but the names on there. So if people understand and you're part of a larger community and you have an accepted solution. And to be honest with just build your legitimacy is something that is going to satisfy the person that on your website they're needs . Why are they there? I feel like this person is trustworthy and will do the job I need to do to solve my problems .

Jarett Duker:

And the final thing I want to mention , uh , from the packaging perspective is a demo video. Um, we've all been at websites now we know how the pages break out home page about page support page. You're going to do better with a 32nd or less video explaining your product's primary mission and who you believe your customer to be in an animated or well produced fashion than putting any amount of text boxes on your website. This should be something that more or less starts playing as soon as someone lands. Now this does require some production, but if you were to make one monetary investment in your product packaging, it would be this, this introductory video. We are incredibly attuned to video nowadays and if it just starts playing, there's a good chance I'm going to watch it. Whereas I very well may not read all of your bullet pointed a product or feature list . I very well may at some point in the future, but that's after I've established interest.

Gil Roberts:

Right. Well , you know , you say I've watched the video first and then I go to the list for notes. Okay. I didn't catch in the video. I'm looking for the specific details . Okay, here it is. So I and I agree. 30 seconds or less you'd give it the old elevator pitch as it's called take to capture their attention. I mean you use the Internet. I'm speaking to our listeners here, you guys use the Internet. You guys use the Internet. You know that you bay on videos that suck after like five to 10 seconds, right? So you dad as well as him hit him in the video. When you're constructing your video that they call it the hero shot that that's your first five to 10 seconds and that's

Jarett Duker:

likely all you're going to get. And I'll ask unless you can capture interest and investment right there, you're done. They're not right. I mean

Gil Roberts:

we do it, I do it. You do it. Everybody. People listening, you guys, you've watched it go a crappy video, you close it.

Jarett Duker:

The best example of this is to go on Zapier, pick a function that you are interested in or you may think you want to do like, Hey, I want to do auto scheduling of calendars or I want to do a multi telephone marketing. Type that into Zapier and see how many items come up, different services that could potentially do what you want it to do. We are where we're not even spoiled for choice. We are crushed by choice and you've got to convince people that they want to use yours very quickly because there's a good chance I've clicked through four or five similar products to the one that your marketing, just trying to find the one that actually has the feature set that fits my needs best and you've got very limited time to do that.

Gil Roberts:

You have to make the assumption that you have competitors and that your people are looking at them. Right. Even if you don't, even if it's just so niche or nobody else got into market yet or whatever, you have to assume because there is always a competitor which is not buying anything at all. Right. Or Microsoft Office freefunnel he is our number one seller.

Jarett Duker:

We have to be better than excel. They've been working on excel for a long time and he's very good at what it does. All right . Um, the next section that you need to be very aware of is the help and support around your product, both pre and post purchase help and support. This goes both to establish credibility, drive a purchase decision and then also drive customer retention. Um, the , you would think that this wouldn't happen but it does a ton is someone who is using one of our products, maybe not someone that I've personally trained clicks on the little help button in the top of podio and is very upset that they can't find a help article about their specific product bill but not me installed for them. And this is just something that we as podio developers have to overcome because our products are probably never going to be listed on the actual platform help and support section. So inside of your build on your website , um, basically anywhere you can stick links to your FAQ, your support forums, your demo videos. By the way, you should have all these banks, spoiler alert again , building them. Now the more successful your product is going to be, not only in terms of creating the purchase, but again, retaining the customer and creating adoption inside of the customer organization, beyond just the person who may have purchased it. Now you're getting the purchaser and the person sitting next to them starting to use it.

Gil Roberts:

Jared, are you telling me that I have to write support documentation?

Jarett Duker:

You have to write support documentation and it is the worst part of the job and that it is. It is miserable. And if you're very, very lucky, you can find some great marketing or communications interns that would love a job opportunity this summer.

Gil Roberts:

That's right. It's a , is absolutely on unsexy unforgiving work to write support and FAQ document.

Jarett Duker:

The good news though is is a lot of this stuff actually writes itself because it comes out of real world experience. It's very challenging to sit down and anticipate the problems that your customers have are going to encounter. What a wise person does though is when they solve a problem, they take the extra five minutes to update their support documentation, right? Uh , it's , it's unmanageable when you think about it , this mountain of writing, everything that could happen, but you start small and you begin building and a little bit of work, five minutes a day, just like learning an instrument can create mastery much faster than sitting down for a solid two weeks.

Gil Roberts:

I'm going to say when I'm doing a quote for one of our clients and they want to integrate, I again, I'll go back to that example from today. They want to integrate a piece of software. I went to one where they had to in this order, the Rei client I was speaking of earlier and one that I went to, nothing about API documentation, couldn't find me. Google the solvers name and the word API. Nothing comes up. If the checkbox said, hey, do you have one? They say yes, but it's not publicly available. But what they, what they failed to do is just say, yes, we have it right and it's not listed anywhere. The second piece of software right down at the bottom, because usually developers are going to look like us where I look at the whole website, right? So down at the bottom it says we're looking for API. I clicked on Wayne is some of the most beautiful API documentation that I've ever seen right there. I'm thinking my, well that's a 20% discount because I have to our client because I have complete beautiful API spore documentation, right? Cause like a fifth of the time we have to just sit and play with the API to figure out why we're getting errors. cause there's no documentation.

Jarett Duker:

And frequently we're digging their about sections, finding their lead developers name, digging their email out and then contacting them directly, which you usually will get a response but it's a lot of work to get the email to the right office

Gil Roberts:

Thats right and like even with the support chat and they let me know that I sent a response back to him and I'm still waiting for information this morning so forgive him on that. But it's still like I now have this issue with getting the information and documentation about this product that I need to be able to call my client and this isn't a cheap piece of software now. It's not a podio based solution, but we're going to be integrating it in with a solution . So it's holding up for , from an agency perspective, it's holding us up from being able to make that sale and it's because they have poor documentation about the product.

Jarett Duker:

So as a part of your website, even if it's incomplete in the beginning, begin building the frequently asked questions, begin the support for us and make sure the support forums has a search bar on it. I mean these are , the software's been around for a long time, but it's essential today as it ever was because most of the time the answer is there as long as it's indexed.

Gil Roberts:

If you build this infrastructure early in your product, it's not going to not just help you make sales and retain customers. It's also going to blossom. As I've seen in like quickbooks and some of these other ones, the communities will begin to answer their own questions. So that takes work off your plate because you having the FAQ section and you have where other users of the software can answer. Especially like the beginning of questions and things like that , that they'll come in and answer as part of the community. They're doing your job for you for free . Uh , so you know, don't, don't discount the value of sanding that ground up early so they may, you can repost veterans , not just the short term benefits and we were sales and customer retention, but also the ability to for a community to get around your product, which goes back to credibility, right? If you go to a product and as this huge support for them as people talking about it, you were using it for a whole bunch of things. Looks like it's pretty good piece of software. Right? And it's kind of great community around. So I have a problem. I don't have to wait on the developer to answer my question. You know, there's a hundred people in here talking. We experienced this with podio directly. You can go and globiflow user forms, right? There's a Podio user forums and Sarah doesn't make a lot of answers in there . She asked me occasionally, but a lot of times it's other people as a part of the community answering those questions. So very, very important.

Jarett Duker:

And um, we could make a final point about the best way to do chat, the best way to do a live support and the life, but the , the end result is have a way that you can have a dialogue with your customers and your potential customers. So a lot of different ways you could do it, but make yours , you want to be to make yourself as available as possible. Um, or at least the appearance of, availability. Because you're small, you're not going to be overwhelmed, at least not in a way, not right away. So the more you can make yourself feel like up here and not as a sales person , the better off you're going to do . So thank you so much.

Gil Roberts:

Yeah, I think this , uh, this has been a good session for our listeners. Software. They gained a lot of value. We are always trying to deliver value to our podcast . I think that , um , understanding that the elements that you put around the solution, which a lot of us, you know, especially you are engineers or developers, we don't, we don't think about those style , those things, those style design elements that are non software, right? Like these are the elements that are non software that , that that's so much a part of this software. Um , so definitely paying attention, understanding where you're going with your packaging. Uh, and the idea is to increase your sales, customer retention. I'm just general , I mean your community of users, much happier. Anything else you'd like to add?

Jarett Duker:

No, I think that was a really good podcast. I'm glad you were able to have me on.

Gil Roberts:

Alright , thank you so much. Uh, just a quick reminder as we wrap up podcast up today, we are still looking for podio gaps. Uh , we're going to pull some out of the user form. We've had a few people email in as well. I will have a solving podio gaps so well I likely on our next episode. So we're , we're , we're still determining that. Please do get your gaps in for a chance to get on that. Um , you can turn those gaps in via our Facebook, linkedin, Twitter. You could shoot as a podio message or email at podcast@brickbridgeconsulting dot. Um , that's it for this week and we hope that everybody has a great weekend. And lastly, if you haven't , shame on you, you should be subscribed to us so go ahead and hit that subscribe button. You guys have a great rest of your week and weekend.